Model 12 Freezes Ableton after ~3h30min of running

[LCGomes]

I've been trying to troubleshoot an issue I've been having with the Model 12. It first happened that DAW audio completely died on me in a live show, and then I realized crashes would invariably (and always) happen after 3h30 of opening the Ableton set, independently of playback being running or not. The mixer itself does not crash, ie. the live inputs will still be playing.
I have to force quit Ableton, restart it and it will play.

I've already checked:
- Energy saving settings on my computer (off)
- Running the Live Set with internal audio (no crash)
- Running a blank live set with the Tascam (still crashes after 3h30)
- Another USB-C cable

Has anyone run into a similar problem?
Might it be a firmware issue? I'm running the latest version (1.30 0088).
I appreciate all the help as honestly Idon't want to give up live gigging with the Model 12, I love its workflow too much.
As my live show is ~90m the solution is to start Ableton right before starting to play. But I can't for the life of me understand what could be causing this issue.

BTW some specs: MacBook Pro M1 Max (2021), Ableton Live 11 latest (11.2.11)

 

[LCGomes]

Reporting that after firmware 1.41 update the issue persists.
No Ableton + Apple Silicon users encountering the same?

 

[LCGomes]

It's been over a year and this problem persists. TASCAM have never replied to my emails. honestly don't know what to do here.

 

[Max Relic]

Sorry I can't help much. Recently I conducted a test on connectivity between my Model 12 and the iMac (High Sierra) / DAW. Initially I had the Model freezing almost instantly when attaching the USB cable through a buffered extension, which forced me to detach the cable and power cycle my unit each time. Then I experienced alert messages on the LCD screen if the bitlength/samplerate on the iMac weren't matched to the current song loaded in the Model (I intentionally verified the behavior under wrong settings). Apart of this, all went pretty smooth so I am afraid I can't add much more. if I were you, I'd install an older MacOS version like High Sierra on an external SSD, boot the system from it and test the behavior of the Model 12 in such "sterilized" environment.

 

[shredd]

@LCGomes - sorry - just now seeing this thread...and I'm not sure as I can help much, since I don't own a ModelXX (never even seen one!)...and I know squat-ola about DAW's (I'm a "hardware" guy).

Your OP suggests the issue is likely to be in Ableton, NOT your M12...and I suspect it has to do with it keeping track of time (playing or not), and having a 3:30 per-session time limitation, at which point it stops.
I'd bet you a bag of pucks the reason Tascam never replied to your email is that they haven't the slightest inkling on (or interest in!?!) how to address Ableton problems. You might wanna go that route.

Just a suggestion - I'll step aside and let the guys who actually know what they're talking about address this possibility. I gotta get back to figgerin' out which way the pointy end of the guitar goes.

 

[Max Relic]

@shredd, I always wanted to know but was reluctant to ask: what to do if your guitar is a Flying-V with 3 pointy ends?

 

[shredd]

what to do if your guitar is a Flying-V with 3 pointy ends?

BRAIN MELT!!!

 

[Max Relic]

I think ZZ-Top's rotating straps should be a viable solution, spin the guitar until it points in the right direction

 

[shredd]

Might help me to find a decent git'r teacher. Unfortunately, this is what pretty much everyone where I live is like...

 

[Max Relic]

That's another music...

 

[shredd]

That's another music...

Not that it’s my intent to continue the thread-hijack, or start a flame-war, but…

It’s not “music”, or anything akin. It’s a vile, deadly noise that at best results in selfish, entitled people gleefully terrifying and intimidating everyone around them, and at worst results in their innocent victim’s death/s.

 

[Max Relic]

@shredd, ah, not in the literal sense of music; It's a periphrasis to say "that's another topic". Ok, enough hijacking innocent threads. My apologies!

 

[shredd]

enough hijacking innocent threads. My apologies!

Me too. In my ‘neighborhood’, discussing such things will get you beaten like a drum. And it ain’t nice table manners on the forum.

BACK to @LCGomes ‘s problem…any progress?!?

 

[Logrinn]

I’m just thinking out loud here … but couldn’t it have something to do with Ableton’s problem with 2gb (-something, 2,2?) wav files?
That size is by the way the max an ”ordinary” wav file can be. Longer than that and you have to use the Riff64 format instead. I don’t know the specifics here but this is apparently a known fact: https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/a...r-recording-fails-due-to-2-GB-file-size-limit
Now if the Model12 is hooked up as a master to Ableton, could it be that it sends MIDI Clock continously? And could it be, although no recording is taking place, that Ableton is in some kind of standby mode during such a session and that after circa 3,5 hours it ”shuts down” because of it ”passing” the would be 2gb file size, had a recording taken place?

Sometimes two units, or in this case a piece of hardware and a piece of software, works well on their own, but not so when they’re together.

Or maybe the cause for the problem is something completely different …

 

[Phil Tipping]

That's a great theory. I'm not familiar with Ableton but it seems to have a 'Capture' mode, albeit for MIDI; the manual says:
"Live is always listening to MIDI input on armed or input-monitored tracks, and Capture MIDI lets you retrieve the material you’ve just played on those tracks. This is particularly useful if you forgot to press the Record button before playing, or if you prefer to improvise or experiment freely without the stress of recording."
I can't see MIDI data reaching 2GB, but if audio is treated the same way, you may be onto something. See if the feature can be disabled.

 

[Max Relic]

Assuming that the Model 12 is set to 44.1kHz/16-bit (lightest bitrate case), 60 min of audio would require about 310 MB per track (mono) on disk, and 210 min --> about 1.06 GB per track (mono).

If the audio interface is set to 48kHz/24-bit (better quality, worst case) the space required on disk is 506.25 MB/hour per each mono track, and 210 min -> about 1.7 GB.

If Ableton records each track on separate files it shouldn't hit the 2 GB limit per file when recording time reaches 3h30', but if the incoming audio is recorded all together -or separated but in a higher quality format- then it could be the problem.

Following the example, recording mono audio at 48kHz/32-bit requires 675 MB/hour on disk, and 210 min -> 2.3 GB!

 

[Phil Tipping]

Now Max has confirmed the max file size is in the same ball-park, could it be the Model 12 doing its stereo mixdown in the background.... might not be Ableton after all?

 

[Logrinn]

Hm, wouldn’t that mean that the Model12 would shut down after 3,5 hours and not the DAW?
But, I can also see in the manual that the Model12 does indeed have a 2gb max limit, so you might be on to something here.
If the Model12 does something in the background and it reaches its limit it doesn’t seem to shut down (I have my Model12 running much longer than that) or crash but perhaps sends some ”end-of-the-line” message to Ableton and that’s what causing OP’s crash.

I don’t have Ableton, but I do have Harrison Mixbus, Logic and Reaper.
If possible I might be able to try working with these separate DAWs and see if I get the same result as the OP after 3,5 hours.

… if I find the time to do so … I’ll let you know what the result is.

Also, what I do with my DAW might not be what the OP does with Ableton. He speaks of running a live show, but I don’t know what that means.
Has he recorded several songs that are longer than 3,5 hours that is playing back? Or is he recording stuff?

He says it happens independently if playback is running or not.
That would mean that opening the DAW for 3,5 hours - connected to the Model12 - and then it crashes?
That would be easy - but time consuming - to try, with my three different DAWs.
But I’m still sceptical if I would get a crash or not, not knowing all the facts, like sample rate, bit depth, sync on or off and so on.

 

[Max Relic]

I don't think the Model 12 may record silently in background: individual channel stand-by recording (if any) must be armed and the Record button in the transport area pressed in order to start writing the Main Mix program onto tracks 11/12.
Sure, the 2GB filesize limit is there and have yet to figure what the Model 12 will do when that limit is reached; will have to test this soon.
Ableton recording silently in background? Maybe, or maybe not; I will check this too.
At this point we have very few details to get a proper idea of what is happening in the OP system: how is the Model 12 set (how many channels, samplerate, bitdepth)? And what about Ableton?
I take both the Model 12 and the DAW are in a sort of recording stand-by, working as a PA system for a couple hours until the show begins, then the recording is started and something makes the DAW halt in the middle of the performance.

 

[LCGomes]

Hey everyone thanks for all the messages! Fun to see such a lively thread now!

i've tried several different systems. Currently running a 2021 MBP M1Max with Live 11 for live shows. I also have Live 12 installed and the problem's still there.

Ableton: I've contacted Ableton, i have a long thread with them and they cannot find any fault on the software side. There isn't any message in the error log when it freezes. They keep pointing me to Tascam as the fault as the behavior does not happen with any other audio interfaces.

Also: I'm not recording at all in Live (Audio or MIDI). There is no MIDI activity on its input coming from the Model 12.

Ableton is running the Model12 at 48khz with 128 buffer. I have zero dropouts on my live session when running.
Once Live freezes, so does the Model 12. The input LEDs on the Model 12 don't respond to analog inputs anymore, for example.

One interesting thing that might or might not be related: sometimes I record my live shows with the SD recorder. I always need to start recording after Ableton is plugged in and using the Model 12 as interface. if I start SD record and then start Ableton, the Model 12 will freeze. I suspect this is because the Model 12 will "lock" to the computer's clock somehow. If it's already recording, it would have locked to some kind of internal clock prior to attempting to lock to the computer, and that will trigger a software fault.

This is all the info I can give you.
I've done 40+ live shows with the Model 12 now, love this mixer so much. In a dream scenario I'd leave it running after soundcheck, coming back hours later to perform!