Creating Mixes from Songs Tracked by Other Studios

[Mark Richards]

I've posted this in the "EXTRAS/Computers, Software, Sequencing" area of the forum because this song has been tracked and mixed with D.A.W. software.

Using Harrison Console's Mixbus v9 I've created this mix from the original 36 tracks of a recording session featuring Zane Carney & Friends, engineered and recorded by Telefunken at Vintage King Audio.

If anyone's interested, I can provide a link to download the original Telefunken 36 track zip file.
(click to expand)


I'll also try to answer questions, if any, about Mixbus.

BACKGROUND
Telefunken Mic Summit Session AES 2014
Song: Talk to Me Baby
Artist: Zane Carney & Friends
Tracked at Vintage King Audio

Vintage King and Telefunken recorded a live session with Zane Carney and Friends. The live basic tracking and overdubs were done through an API 1608 console direct into Pro Tools HD11, recorded at 24bit/44.1KHz sample rate. The 36 track filenames show the audio source listed first (LEAD VOX, ACOUSTIC, PIANO), followed by the Telefunken microphone used (C12, AR-51, etc).

COPYRIGHT NOTICE:
“All original 36 audio files have been engineered and recorded by TELEFUNKEN Elektroakustik and are presented for educational and demonstrational purposes only.”

Telefunken provided these multitrack audio files for the sole and only purpose of home studio use and educational purposes. The lyrics and music, sound recording, arrangement, etc. are protected by copyright. No commercial use is permitted; any commercial use or reuse is strictly forbidden.
​

 

[Phil Tipping]

Mark, nice job with the Zane Carney mix. Not listened critically so haven't commented, but found the Telefunken link and discovered their multi-track mixes are all over Youtube. There are even several versions of the one you did... and they all sound different! How do you ever manage to judge which direction to go? - it's beyond me

 

[Mark Richards]

Thanks Phil; appreciate your kind words. Also, I see the thread has been moved to the Recording 101 forum.

It's not uncommon for an artist to track at one studio and mix at a different one. I'm looking forward to hearing about the experience (direction to go; deciding on the "best" mix; war stories; etc.) of others who've been involved in the process of mixing (balancing, as some refer to it) song tracks recorded at other studios (professional, semi-professional, or home project).

How do you ever manage to judge which direction to go? - it's beyond me

To your question:
I first listened to a demo of that song that Zane Carney has up on youtube - just him and guitar. Then I listened to the 36 track version with all faders at unity gain, no EQ, compression, or FX , to hear how it was tracked.

The thought process for my mix:
I heard the song as a possible "smooth jazz" style composition, so went in that direction; and added a slap echo to the studio vocal overdub tracks before blending those with the live vocal track in the mix.

In the real world, first I would have had a discussion with the artist and producer about their vision for the song, and work from that.

 

[Phil Tipping]

Thanks Mark, that makes sense. In fact, it was the vocal processing which caught my attention and caused me to look for the original tracks to compare. None of the others I heard used slap echo, so that's an interesting approach.

There are so many ways to process a mix I can never make up my mind Even basic things like settings on a compressor or an eq. Many of them sound good, but in their own way - that's the dilemma.

I'm also never sure how to 'push' ideas onto an artist. Several times I've been itching to try out some ideas, but the artist is adamant they don't want any treatment whatsoever "just make it sound exactly as I/we play it... no effects!".

Maybe the trick is to just do it instead of discussing it, and then see what they think. I believe (no pun intended!) that the engineer who started the 'Cher effect' craze did the same thing. The only issue with that approach is that it can take a lot of time to do (and it's your time as the client didn't ask for it), so you lose out if they don't like it. I guess that's the gamble you take.

Btw - if anyone wants to have a go at importing those tracks to a Tascam machine, they're 16-bit files not 24 as they claim. There are other downloads on that site which are 24-bit though.

 

[-mjk-]

Phil, "to produce, or not to produce, that is the question...."

In the old days I would sometimes prepare something for the artist to listen to or make suggestions in real time. There were 2 notable cases:

1. A punk rock band had never worked with an engineer who had producing skills before. They had simply gone into the studio and he set up the mics and pressed the Record button. So, I would make suggestions which were met with the natural resistance, of course. But always "hey, no problem man" and an instant return to the original and we'd move on. Then one day they said "yeah, that sounds good." I did a couple of records for them and some got pretty good airplay in Boston. 2 years later I got a call from Paula, the bass player and band leader. She explained that they were leaving for Nashville and it was all my fault. She told me I had opened their minds to new sounds and they had started listening to country music! She and her band-mate Maria decided to move to Nashville and play country music and I never heard from them again!

2. I was working with a new band for the first time. I added some white noise to their snare drum sound during the mix. They sat beside me at the desk and they looked like they got hit by a truck. I asked "what do you think?" They said "It's different" and nothing more. "But do you like it?" "We don't know." Then I realized that they honestly didn't have any idea what they liked for sounds. I gave them a copy of the mix with the white noise and without. 6 months later they were back in the studio with 4 new tunes and they gave me 100% production control of the project. They told me to do "whatever I thought was best."

I find that the only way to demonstrate something properly is to give the customer an exact copy of what you want them to accept. Asking a customer to visualize or conceptualize something is not an option because they don't have the experience to do so. In the studio they are out of their realm. Telling them that certain things are "standard practice" or "what I normally do" can help. But make sure they know everything is non destructive and you shouldn't have any problems. I've gone back and done mixes where I added a lead guitar (my own playing) and told the client "it needed a solo" lol. Granted, I knew them pretty well but still that takes a lot of confidence. In no case have I ever been criticized for doing something like that. The worse thing that happened was they didn't use my suggestion.

 

[Mark Richards]

Phil Tipping said
Thanks Mark, that makes sense. In fact, it was the vocal processing which caught my attention and caused me to look for the original tracks to compare. None of the others I heard used slap echo, so that's an interesting approach.

Yeah, I think my twist on it is different from other mixes out there.

There are so many ways to process a mix I can never make up my mind Even basic things like settings on a compressor or an eq. Many of them sound good, but in their own way - that's the dilemma.

FWIW, you're in good company: George Martin and his charges often made multiple mixes and would then need to chose/designate one as "the best", and all had to agree. Sometimes, they chose part of one and part of another and spliced.

Subtle differences introduced by altering compression and/or EQ can be difficult to judge. When that happens, I try to focus on only one aspect of the mix at a time, e.g., how did the kick drum change; or how did the reverb change? Did it get better or worse; or just different. That's where really accurate reference headphones are worth the cost.

In my signature is a new link to two different mixes of Zane Carney's song. I created each mix using different compression and EQ chains on the master bus. If you focus only on the reverb, you should hear the subtle difference in the stereo mixes. Which is better? I still haven't decided.

I'm also never sure how to 'push' ideas onto an artist. Several times I've been itching to try out some ideas, but the artist is adamant they don't want any treatment whatsoever "just make it sound exactly as I/we play it... no effects!".

Maybe the trick is to just do it instead of discussing it, and then see what they think. I believe (no pun intended!) that the engineer who started the 'Cher effect' craze did the same thing. The only issue with that approach is that it can take a lot of time to do (and it's your time as the client didn't ask for it), so you lose out if they don't like it. I guess that's the gamble you take.

I would usually accommodate/defer to experienced talent. Most often the first-time-recording talent that came to my studio would be comfortable experimenting, or even on occasion letting me make production decision for them.

One time, on our own initiative, my assistant and I completely redid a mix made under the direction of a very inexperienced producer. The talent loved it; I don't think the producer even noticed.

 

[-mjk-]

Mark, I finally got a chance to listen to this mix on my earbuds. It’s very well balanced spectrally and you have maintained the original vintage feel for sure. You really opened up the stereo field after the solo. I think I would have messed with it too much, so I’m thinking I should throw these tracks up on my console and see what happens, lol. Nice work man.

 

[Mark Richards]

-mjk- said
Mark, I finally got a chance to listen to this mix on my earbuds. It’s very well balanced spectrally and you have maintained the original vintage feel for sure. You really opened up the stereo field after the solo. I think I would have messed with it too much, so I’m thinking I should throw these tracks up on my console and see what happens, lol. Nice work man.

Thanks for the kind words, mj.

With 36 tracks to play with, there's all sorts of opportunities to be creative. I started with the "yard stick" mix at unity gain to get a feel for how the song was tracked.

I was looking to add some "excitement" to the song without going overboard with FX, so my mix starts pretty basic, gradually builds as the song progresses, then closes the way it opens.

Have fun with the tracks!
And please post a link to your mix when done - looking forward to hearing it.

If any one else wants to give it a go, here's the URL for the tracks (d/l link at page bottom):
https://www.telefunken-elektroakust...king-hosts-telefunken-mic-summit-session-aes/

These are the tracks (16 bit / 44.1 sample rate):
File name format: [Source] [mic] [console].wav

 

[Phil Tipping]

In my signature is a new link to two different mixes of Zane Carney's song. I created each mix using different compression and EQ chains...

Well I have to confess I couldn't hear much difference on speakers, even with looping various phrases in the vocals and switching back & forth between the two. If I had to make a decision, the 2nd mix seemed smoother, but it's very subtle (to my one ear!), and it was easy to convince myself the opposite at various points... so no hope for me then
Overall though, both mixes sounded great to my limited experience, and the ebb & flow came across well; certainly a lot better on speakers - my laptop & earbuds are pretty hopeless in comparison.

 

[-mjk-]

OK, I downloaded the track files. Honestly, this represents one of those types of sessions that I don't get. 12 background vocal tracks and there are only 2 short sections at the end with singing. Why weren't these sub-mixed? This is one of those "every single sound get's it's own track" sessions. The only reason this was done is because it was recorded in a format that allows unlimited tracks.

The first thing I did was submix the vocals. That alone opened up 12 channels on the console.

Now I'm going to see what this tune sounds like. What I have going for me is that I have no idea who these people are or what the song is. So this is totally fresh for me (except for hearing Mark's mix).

And please post a link to your mix when done - looking forward to hearing it.

Challenge accepted

 

[-mjk-]

OK, this is my mix of this tune. Not to turn it into a competition but I thought I'd take a crack at it.

For reference, I have never heard this song before and the only mix I've heard is the one done by @Mark Richards.

 

[Mark Richards]

mj, great mix and master, IMO. Spectrum, balance, sound stage, imaging, depth, clarity, dynamics all spot on. Particularly like the lead vox, drums and bass treatment ('specially in knowing what the raw tracks sound like). Also like the "live performance" vibe.

A good contrast in production styles: My treatment has more or less a light "smooth jazz" production approach using slap echo on the studio vocal overdubs before blending those with the live vocal track to create some excitement; your treatment leans into a solid R&B approach (at least, that's how it sounds to me).

I'm looping the track as I write this: the more I listen, the more I like it. IMO yours is superior to mixes of this song found on YouTube and Soundcloud (many of which IMO are dull, lifeless and uninteresting - more like demos than final productions).

I kept the master level to -11 LUFS, wanting to be sure Soundcloud wouldn't mess with the audio level. Your track sounds much louder in comparison. What level did you master at?

 

[-mjk-]

Thank you Mark. Your comments hold weight as a professionals audio engineer. I mastered the track as -8 LUFS.

Particularly like the lead vox, drums and bass treatment ('specially in knowing what the raw tracks sound like). Also like the "live performance" vibe.

The tracks are IMO, rather amateurish. The tracks are too dynamic (yes, that is a thing) and I used RX 10 Advanced on every single track to balance the performances. The basic techniques that I used were:

RX 10 Leveler module to set the clip gain of all the instruments and vocals tracks for consistency.

The room ambient mics were not used. The room is not-so-good sounding, IMO.

I gated the drum tracks except the overheads (obviously).

Bussed all the vocals together and EQ'ed them with Pultec clones. The lead vocal and background vocal tracks both have individual compression on the console channels, and there is additional compression on the vocal bus. Since the lead vocal and background vocals are in the same final compressor, pushing up the vocal track fader puts more signal into the compressor and the lead vocal becomes the dominant force that is activating the compressor. That helps to unmask the lead vocals from the backgrounds which share the same spectrum. The lead vocal doesn't get louder - it gets thicker. The Pultec style EQ gives the vocals a sheen that cuts through the mix. I'm not so happy with the vocal EQ (or how they are recorded, quite frankly as there are plosives). Sometimes Zane sounds clean and other times there is some smearing. It is what it is. I spent enough time on it.

I applied Neutron 4 Unmasking plugin on every guitar, keyboard and background vocal track and adjusted it by ear for the proper amount of lead vocal unmasking via sidechain send from the lead vocal.

The combination of the above 2 techniques results in a lead vocal that almost sounds too soft in the mix, yet every word is intelligible. This is a psycho-acoustic method of getting the listener to pay more careful attention to the song because they want to hear the singer. They don't have a problem hearing the singer; it is a purposeful deception to make it sound like there might be a problem hearing the singer so it makes the listener pay more attention.

I used 4 reverbs (lol). Since I gated the drums and didn't use the ambient mic tracks, I built a digital room. All the instruments are in that space to basically an equal degree. That reverb and the main vocal plate reverb is in the X32 console. The 3rd reverb is a combo reverb/slap delay that I used mainly on the lead guitar. The forth reverb is Valhalla SuperMassvie and I built a room just for the vocals. The reverb tail keeps the lead vocal from sounded like he's in front of the band, but so he ifts in with the band. With good monitors there is also a slight height effect where it sounds like the players are sitting down and the singer is standing.

In the end, the U-47 sounds like it's down the singer's throat, lol. The ending is very thick and the background vocals are loud but because they are in the same bus compressor it just works.

I can't stand all the noises on the tracks. Sounds like someone kicked a music stand. There are some chair noises or some such. I'm sure I could have used RX and removed them but this isn't a paid job, lol. I estimate that with an additional 15 hours I could get this mix almost perfect.

The bass track is compressed with an 1176 style compressor and an Ampeg SVT bass plugin.

IMO yours is superior to mixes of this song found on YouTube and Soundcloud (many of which IMO are dull, lifeless and uninteresting in comparison - more like demos than final productions).

I think most people are under the impression that they have to use every track and not make many changes to the original. I approached this just like a client mix. I did what I thought should have been done.

Is there an original release version of this song? I'd like to hear that.

Maybe I should upload this mix to YouTube also.

Thanks Mark. I appreciate your feedback very much.

 

[Mark Richards]

Is there an original release version of this song? I'd like to hear that.

Talk To Me Baby on Zane Carney's website.

 

[-mjk-]

That's an entirely different production of that tune. I was asking if there is an official release from that session (or why do it? lol). Thanks.

 

[Mark Richards]

I'll hunt around a bit for an "official" mix, but it seems the session was to promote telefunken mics at AES 2014, and thence to the general project studio community in 2017 by making the multitrack files available for educational purposes.

 

[-mjk-]

If that is true, I wonder why it was never mixed by the original studio. Hmmmm. Thanks.

 

[Mark Richards]

Telefunken engineers did the multitrack session using the studio facilities at Viking King LA.

 

[-mjk-]

Yes. And then never mixed the tracks, apparently.

I think it loses the value if there is no target to shoot for, like the Mastering challenges.

 

[Phil Tipping]

... thought I'd take a crack at it.

Nice job MJ. As mentioned, a completely different take on it.
Had forgotten we've all been on Soundcloud for ages! Just played David Porter's 'Silent Night' from 3 years ago. What a wonderful bit of guitar playing - a complete contrast to the rock styles, but equally as impressive.